Nov 102009
 
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Okay, my last post took a certain subset of unscientific environmentalism apart, and it’s right-wing corporatism with it. In this post I continue the series on what the real scientists have found, as opposed to the popular views often propagated. My target today is veganism, so I want to start with a disclaimer. There are two sides to veganism (and in fact to vegetarianism) -  a moral decision and a scientific/health theory.

The former is not under debate here. Morality is a personal choice and if you personally believe that you cannot promote any use of animal products, then that is a valid view. If I believe that, since in a stable ecology populations don’t grow and the vast majority of baby animals are destined to be food anyway (for each mating pair, in a stable ecology – only two babies out of their entire lifetime will grow up to breed) – that farming is less cruel than nature, then that is my viewpoint and just as valid.

Where there is room for debate, is on the science side. Is vegetarianism and veganism healthier ? Those who promote it most certainly claim it is, but these claims are scientifically dubious and often just outright wrong – and on this we can have a sensible debate. Your moral beliefs may well (and have every right to) trump it anyway – and that’s perfectly okay, it’s not what I’m talking about here.

So let’s see what the usual veganist story as propagated by PETA says. The claim is that humans are not in fact omnnivores but herbivores, that eating meat and animal products are bad for our health. They support this by indicating that we have small canines – unlike say cat’s and other pure carnivores.
Of course dogs are a lot more omnivoric than cats, and they have bigger canines than us – but they are still mostly carnivore. On the other hand – bovine species and other true herbivores have no canines whatsoever. So that claim is rather dumb, sure our canines are smaller – we were never really teeth-hunters, apes rarely are, we used our hands instead – but we do have them, because we are meat-eaters.

Another thing given as “evidence” of our herbivoric nature is the claim that the great apes are herbivores, they being our closest relatives and with it the claim our evolutionary ancestors (their ancestors too mind you) were aso herbivores. Well is this true ?
Well to answer this, a bit of background is needed, speciation frequently follows a path where species split into a robus and gracile form (that would be a big-strong and a small-fast variety). Robust forms are usually herbivores, gracile can go either way. An Eland is a robust antelope, a springbok is gracile (in this case both are herbivores). A leopard is a robust form, a jaguar is gracile (carnivores here).
Among the apes – gorillas are a herbivoric robust form. Chimpansees (which are much closer to us) come in two varieties. The gracile bonobo (Pan pinuscus) and the robust common chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes). Both share 97% of our genes… and both of them are omnivoric hunters.
Yep, that’s right – they hunt. They hunt gazelle for meat. They hunt insects all day long. Pan Troglodytes even likes to hunt monkeys (this is not canibalism) – especially baby monkeys which are more tender…

Sorry, the fruit-eating herbivoric chimpanzee is a myth, real chimpanzees eat a good 30% of their diet in meat. The animal today that most lives like our ancestors probably did (in fact most scientists believed it neatly stepped into the niche where we had once been once we moved on) is not in fact an ape, but a monkey – the Southern-African baboon.  Baboons too are hunters, they usually will only take on larger pray like gazelles if it’s very young or injured however. On the other hand, a good 50% of their diet consists of spiders, scorpions and insects (whether it’s meat is debatable but scorpions are definitely not fruit).

Okay, so none of our contemporary relatives are herbivores, in fact try to make a chimpanzee a vegan and you’ll end up with a dead chimpanzee. What about our own ancestors ? Well it turns out that there were many, many homo-somethings over the years, the first thing that really started to be human like, good old Homo-Erectus split up into a whole bunch of sub-species. Many were robust and with one exception all the robust ones were vegetarians (the exception was Homo Neanderthalenses).
Only one gracile line has left any fossils, they were omnivores and the evidence is overwhelming (hunting tools, bones and other evidence of hunting is almost always found along with their fossils). That line, became homo sapience – us.

Along the way, it split up into robust forms several times, each time those robust forms appear to have gone vegetarian as well. What they all have in common is this: they are extinct.
Most of them didn’t hang around for very long either, they’d appear to fill a niche, and die out as soon as the niche went away. Without the adaptability of an omnivore – they were at the mercy of nature, here today, gone tomorrow. These were not tiny guys, they were our robust form… each of the could have knocked Schwarzeneggers block off without any effort… they were huge, strong and powerful without many natural enemies… but without the ability to supplement their diets with meat, the slightest change in climate would starve them.

The exceptional robust form was the Neanderthals. They were exceptional because, like their cousins the homo sapience, they were omnivores. They were much stronger than us, and at least as intelligent. They outlasted all the other robust forms, hanging around until welll after the first homo sapience were here, but ultimately they didn’t make it.
In this case, diet does not seem to have been the deciding factor since they had the same diet as us – and were stronger so they should have been able to beat us for resources.
So why did we win ? Like much of science, we’re not sure, we may have just outbred them. Hell, we may have inbred them. There is however one interesting fact. The fossil record shows that, over their entire existence – the neanderthalls show almost no progress. The hunting tools found among their earliest fossils (around 30 thousand years ago) and those found among their most recent (around 10 thousand years ago, contemporary to early humans getting to their peak) are… identical.
In thirty thousand years, no innovation. No improvement. No progress.

I think we beat them because we had imagination, we didn’t solve a problem once and got stuck – we stayed curious, always looking for better ways. We outperformed them by sheer willpower and that force in us that drove us to land on the moon and explore every corner of this planet we’re on. There is a lot of scientific evidence to support this theory and most paleontologists consider it a likely scenario – and it has something going for it.

So that’s a lot of facts and some theories (I skipped the bits early on which has about 50 different theories and not much supporting evidence yet – and focussed on what we’re almost entirely sure off) – but the message is clear. Humans didn’t become the dominant species on the planet because we ate meat. We survived to become the dominant species because we ate meat.
Not being herbivores is why we outlived almost all our relatives who tried the other way, they are all extinct – until there was only one left, who also ate meat (we know that Neanderthalls used fire to drive entire packs of Mammoths over cliffs until they crashed to their deaths), we beat them with brains, but if we hadn’t been meat eaters, we’d never have survived long enough to try.

So, in short, it’s just simple provable scientific fact that humans are evolved meat-eaters. The claims against this are not just dubious but outright wrong, they are lies. Science has a core task of protecting us from believing what we want to believe, and confronting us with reality instead. Vegan “science” here is nothing more than wishful thinking.
There is a lot of room for research and debate about how *much* meat we should be eating – many cultures (including my own) probably eat a lot more than is healthy, but that’s a very different thing from claiming we’re natural herbivores who eat meat because of some odd way we twisted our nature…

  • dhatt

    Major lies of vegan/vegetarianism? Ok, sounds interesting. Oh, something’s not quite right… maybe a better title would have been ‘A lie from PETA’.

    I was pleased when you said you’ll be focusing on the scientific / health aspect, as I’ve read enough about the ethical issues. Yes, I do find the evolution of our species interesting, and yes, we cannot deny that our anatomy is that of meat eater. I kind of expected to find some coverage of the health effects, along with what you did cover.

    So, only gripe: this post implies that, because you have countered PETA’s view on human evolution, you have shown that there are no health benefits from not eating meat. You talk about uncovering the real truth so we’re not disillusioned. I think a significant part of that is drawing conclusions from what you have actually found, not what you think you have.

    • a happy and healthy vegan

      FTF – couldn’t stop laughing about your attempt to beat pseudo science with your own ‘science’. First of which just recognized as such because of your ignorance concerning facts and most of all absent knowledge in mostly every single sentence. Get your facts straight and stop guessing and pseudo! conclude.

      At least, science requires creative guessing of hypotheses (which you are obviously capable of) but more important a structured process of verifying those hypotheses. Check out how science or at least pseudoscience works, read a some books (e.g. Vegan Nutrition by Gill Langley), check out latest research, and retry. 
      Enjoy your meat ;) sincerely

      • http://silentcoder.co.za A.J. Venter

         You think a book like example you give counts as science ? Fucking moron.

        • Hah

           Chemistryis chemistry

          • Vegan Hypocrisy 101

            What you’re citing isn’t ‘chemistry”, it’s “bullshit pseudoscientific propaganda byand for credophiles who need to to use false information and extremism to push their absolutist idealism on others”. 

          • http://silentcoder.co.za A.J. Venter

             Yes, thanks, and to make it worse – only an idiot would think that chemistry is the major concern in studying human diets. There is a LOT more to it, not just what chemicals we get in, but how easily our bodies can absorb those chemicals (meat proteine is absorbed far better than any other kind for example – yes you can replace it with soy proteine but it needs to be rebuilt before it’s usable for building cells since we are not plants – and a lot gets lost in the process, in practice you need about 30% more mass-for-mass to get the equivalent proteine from soy – and for other plants it’s worse).

      • Guru_Pitka

        well enjoy your tofu and dietary supplements =)

  • http://silentcoder.co.za silentcoder

    Hi,
    You raise valid points, I didn’t really address those – but then – that wasn’t my goal. My goal was to respond to bad science published by PETA. I think I did this for quite a bit of the stuff they spout.

    The points you raise – quite frankly, I don’t know the answers to – and I suspect there is still a lot of debate about (that’s fundamental to science after all). Just compare the Kellog style diet to the Atkins style approach… and both have solid scientific theories to base their practical results on – and I suspect both are probably half-right and dead wrong.

    This is a very difficult thing to study empirically – and the answers are a lot less clear cut. That PETA is probably guilty of selective reporting on such issues would be unsurprising to say the least.
    But because this is still a topic of lots of current research with contradictory results, it’s hard to claim consensus either way.
    So I chose instead to focus on those cases where what PETA claims is simply outright and provably false. The myth of the vegetarion pre-human and our vegetarian ape-cousins is a prime target because they spout it all the time, and it’s such an easy lie to disprove.
    I have watched baboons hunt with my own eyes, we don’t need to wonder if chimps eat meat – we can see them doing it.
    We don’t have too much difficulty figuring out which of the homo lines hunted – they had knives and fires and left animal bones in their dwellings.

    PETA doesn’t care one iota for the scientific method. That’s fine when they talk morality. It’s not fine when they claim to be sharing scientific knowledge. But science being by nature not a distributor of ‘answers’ but of questions, has difficulty combating propaganda. It’s easier to combat it on the things we are sure off than the things we’re still busy figuring out.

    If somebody with more specialist skill on the items dhatt mentioned can give better answers on current scientific thinking about this, I would appreciate that – but I won’t make authoritative claims on something I haven’t researched (well) – and that’s what makes me DIFFERENT from PETA… it’s kind of the whole point.

  • jokevn

    All that you have said implies that you believe in evolution. Evolution has not been proven so cannot be used to prove other arguments.

  • http://silentcoder.co.za silentcoder

    I don’t “believe” in evolution – that would be like “believing” in tables.

    My point is this – I’m arguing science. In science nothing is EVER considered proven, that’s what science is all about, questioning everything – especially itself- all the time.

    The theories that survive questioning, become consensus – until such time as a better one comes along, and that’s what science is. Evolution is a very strong theory, fitting all observed evidence very well, and explaining a lot that no other theory can. We have very solid theories on how it works, what drives it and how it expands and the scientific consensus in favor of it is extremely strong.

    It is likely it will be refined with time, it has been getting refined consistently for a hundred years already, but it’s unlikely it will be replaced. That’s just reality and the only real debate left is from fundamentalists religions. Even the pope (actually the previous pope) has stated the evolution is simply “the tool through which God did his creating” – so it’s not even all religions but a small fundamentalist subset.

    Well, science is ipso facto in conflict with fundamentalism and always will be. Fundamentalism claims to have all the answers (that’s what it means) – while science by definition is about asking questions and demanding evidence to back up your answers.

    As I said in the article – one of the jobs of science is to protect us from believing what we want to believe.

    So do I believe in evolution ? No, I don’t. But I believe in the scientific method. I believe in the idea of seeking knowledge through a system designed to protect us from human fallibility, that doesn’t care for the authority of the speaker. One that doesn’t care for easy answers. A system that instead admonishes the practitioner that his task is not to prove his theory right – but to try as hard as possible to prove it wrong !

    Science isn’t religion, and the one cannot and shouldn’t be used to judge the other. Religion offers answers for spiritual questions, it doesn’t back them up – but science doesn’t even ask those questions because they can’t be backed up so maybe that’s okay. But by the same token, religion really should not argue with science on the questions it does ask – because unlike religion, science actually TESTED their answer, and concedes that this answer may change.

    Sure evolution isn’t proven, nothing is in science, but it’s a lot closer than almost anything has been in a very long time. We haven’t proven quantum mechanics either but we build computers based on it anyway. We’ve proven Newton got the equations WRONG and it was still good enough to land a man on the moon with (we didn’t use Einstein for it even though his versions are more accurate because they are much harder and at the distance involved, Newton is more than accurate enough to hit a target the size of the moon with a lot less difficulty and margin for human error).
    So I disagree with your conclusion. Of course I can base arguments on evolution when those arguments are about science and science at this stage deems evolution an accepted theory. Science’s healthy skepticism is a protective measure, not meant to deem it useless !
    Even if you discount all that… there is this – PETA bases their argument on evolution, but uses disinformation and lies to create a false impression of what path that evolution took – one that no scientist has ever proposed, and that is false pseudoscience and I was arguing the true scientific case against it.
    If your position was right, that I cannot base an argument on an unproven theory, then be consistent and declare that my opponents in this debate cannot use that theory either. At least I used the theory ACCURATELY and didn’t make up my own version of it’s conclusions.

  • Meegan

    YOU ARE AN IDIOT. Whether or not we are omnivors or carnivors or herbavors has NOTHING to do with vegetarianism. Oh and by the way, smoking will kill you.

  • http://silentcoder.co.za silentcoder

    I am not the one who said it did – I was writing in response to articles that get posted on Vegan websites all the time – particularly PETA loves telling people that there is a health and science motivation to not eat meat.
    I said right at the start of the article that I am not questioning the moral side of it – that’s a personal decision and those who become vegetarians for moral reasons – well I respect their right to make that choice.
    I was simply answering the false science claimed by many (not all) vegetarians and vegans to try and make their irrational, moral decision look like a rational, logical and scientifically founded one. It isn’t, and that’s okay but trying to pretend it is, is dishonest.

    So… it would seem, on available evidence, that I am not an idiot, you however are quite clearly illiterate. Oh, and btw. it’s spelled: “omnivores, carnivores and herbivores”.

  • Guru_Pitka

    most(not all) vegans call omnivores disgusting grave yards or cannibals yet when faced with even the slightest criticism, they react violently. what the fuck is wrong with them?!?

    here you have a guy explaining the science behind human diet and meat consumption and they called him an ignorant idiot. well… lets face it. no matter how well founded and scientific your arguments are they would not listen. they would ridicule you and present their dogmatic views and philosophies instead.

    btw. a vegan lifestyle is hard to maintain. and to make things worse, it has some health risks as well    

  • Brokensphincter

    You can get every single nutrient on a vegan diet.
    Every single physical feature of the homo sapiens correlates with that of a herbivore.
    It is idiotic to use a grazing animal to compare to use. Grazing animals are a whole different class of herbivores. We are frugivores.
    The world is grossly over-populated with farm animals as well as humans. Food has to be grown to feed the meat. This is a hideous waste when world hunger is a problem.
    There is not enough room in the world to eat animal products.
    Vegans have lower risks of all kinds of diseases.
    The Milk and Meat industries are constantly promoting their products and brainwashing people.
    Vegans are doing something that is very difficult – all people do is mock vegans and spread lies about us – for no reason other than to make the world a better place. People are always implying that we’re misleading people but why would we do that? there’s no reason to. Unlike the milk and Meat industries.

    • Jake_horney

      lol. criticize the meat and dairy industry so that the soy and gluten industries will prosper hahaha. well done.
      also, if you think that the vegan diet is complete and natural, please do not take any form of dietary supplement like vit. b12 coz these are man made.
      fyi. we are omnivores not frugivores.  

    • John

       ”The world is grossly over-populated with farm animals as well as humans.”

      No it isn’t. The human over population is a lie only believed my naive people.

      • Anonymous

         The world has been over-populated with humans since Adam and Eve arrived.

  • Daniel

    chimpanzees diet consists of 1-4% of meat and is nutritionally insignificant as are the bugs they eat which makes up 4%. Eatting Meat and bugs are political and cultural tools. They do not eat meat for nutritional reasons. Please read the following if you really are as you claim a man of science

    A critique of: A hypothesis to Explain the Role of Meat Eating in Human Evolution by Katharine Milton by Jane Goodall. Scientifically credible information on Vegan and Vegetarian dietshttp://www.ecologos.org/index.htmlhttp://www.brookfieldzoo.org/pagegen/inc…Goodall, Jane, The Chimpanzees of Gombe, Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA (1986), p. 233Lehninger, Principles of Biochemistry, Worth Pub., (1982), p. 158.Graph showing primate dietshttp://www.ecologos.org/primatediets.htmhttp://www.ecologos.org/meat-eating.htm

    Nobody knows the truth about the origin of our teeth, stop pretending you do, unless you have conducted an extensive study and can bring new evidencve forward on the subject stop presenting opinion as fact. 

    • http://silentcoder.co.za A.J. Venter

      Your sources are Jane Goodall ? She died before Bonobo’s were even recognized as a different species. While she was a good scientist – her work is – to  put it mildly – decades out of date and entirely discredited now.

      I said nothing of the ORIGINS of our teeth – I spoke of the NATURE of our teeth – and that IS verifiable scientific fact.

      Even then you are wrong – the origins of mammalian teeth are very well known. Mammals unlike any other group of animals have interlocking teeth that are specialized to various jobs. Such teeth have many advantages but come with one major disadvantage: you can’t just keep replacing them since they are so specialized and each one is unique. Crocs and sharks and the like – just keep growing teeth for ever since every tooth is the same as the others. So the problem is- mouths get bigger, the teeth that are perfect in a young-un aren’t in an adult. So mammals (all mammals) grow two sets, one as we leave the very early stages of childhood to last through until just before puberty – and a second which we keep for the rest of our lives. We know the origins of this since it’s clearly visible in the fossil record. More importantly – this created an evolutionary pressure that did not previously exist. What the hell do you feed the babies before that first set of teeth grow in ? 
      Result: milk glands. We became mammals BECAUSE of our teeth.

      • Joe

        Uh… Jane Goodall’s still alive dude.

        • http://silentcoder.co.za A.J. Venter

          Yes, you’re right, I confused her with Dianne Fossey for a moment. Nevertheless her research is (very) dated. The people doing research now knows that chimps hunt – a lot – they have a particular preference for monkey meat, and they are ESPECIALLY fond of the baby monkeys (because their meat is more tender).

    • http://silentcoder.co.za A.J. Venter

      Oh and I suppose you’ve never actually seen how Chimps kill baby monkeys for food. I have. STFU.

  • I use my brain

    this is absolute crap. I can counter argue that we’ve evolved and adapted into empathic beings who are able to synthesise the B12 and extract flax seed oil.

    So where we are now,brain-wise is actually encouraging veganism.

    on a related matter, did you evolve to have such versatile digits to type nonsense online?

    you really asked for it